My opponent has a very conflicting theology and confused God.
There are two summaries needed. The first is in regards to my debate with RM and the second to fulfill the TITLE of this DEBATE for the reader. A lot of time was wasted getting nowhere and I didn’t want the reader to feel mislead by the TITLE as the debate got hung up by RM refusing to accept the plain and simple logic of specific scriptures.
Part 1 is the summary to RM’s nonsensical argument about John 1:3, Col 1:15-19 etc…
Part 2 summarizes the TITLE as to not cheat the reader out of the argument that never got a chance to fully unfold.
SUMMARY (Part 1 - MY DEBATE WITH ROTHERHAM)
RM has a logically absurd theology. One that Jehovah Witnesses don’t even teach. He actually makes things up to cover up where the JW doctrines fall short but still a complete contradiction in it of itself. Anyone honest with themselves can benefit from looking at this debate unbiased against the simple logic and see that RMs defense falls apart. Just use logical deduction, just like a math problem. If you deduct one from two you are logically left with only one. The same can be done with scriptures leaving RM with no way out. But first consider the implications of his arguments thus far.
If RMs theology is true then there’s a big problem, because:
RM has a God who claims he created everything alone, all by himself, with no help, Isaiah 44:24
but then admits that it was actually Jesus who helped him out. Hebrews 1:2
RM has a God who claims he created everything with his own hands, (alone with no help), Isaiah 44:24, Job 9:8
but then he says it was Jesus hands that actually did creation. Hebrews 1:10
RM claims Jesus made everything it was finished product, but then again it really wasn’t finished because after Jesus created FINISHED PRODUCT, it really wasn't finished because God now had to take over and stretch out the earth and heavens with his own hands. RMs version is clearly a physical co-creation, meaning physically manipulating things into existence and form.
Which is Impossible! As you just saw in Isaiah 44:24 and Job 9:8. There was no physical help. Only one God physically did it alone.
RM has a God who said the world to come was not to be subjected to Angels (Hebrews 2:5)but then his God gives the world to his angel Michael to subject it to him. But there is a problem, no Angel has ever been called a son, ever! (Hebrews 1:4–5, 13) So how could Jesus have been an angel? (He has no answer for this.)
He has a God who claims never to be seen by any man, yet his God is seen all over the old testament. (They saw the God of Israel and his feet.) Exodus 24:11, Isaiah 6:5 Genesis 32:30, Numbers 12:8, etc.. Yet compare John 1:18 and John 6:46
RM’s theology makes Jesus a liar or Moses a liar. (He has to invent an answer.)
RM has a God who claims he created everything for himself, for his own inheritance but then contradicts himself and says it was created for Jesus so that Jesus could be an heir and have an inheritance.
He has no answer for how the Most High can inherit his own property? All throughout the OT there is a Jehovah who has an inheritance. See this post which scared the wits out of RM causing him to want to end the debate. viewtopic.php?f=50&t=854&p=8166#p8048
RM has a God who brought raw materials into existence, but yet scripture says all things that came into existence, came into via Jesus alone, without him not one thing that existed, came into existence. John 1:3 (Even Jehovah Witnesses do not teach this.)
So he has things that came into existence before anything that came into existence existed. (a logical absurdity)
RM has a God that has created a firstborn son (angel) in the beginning, knows he’s a firstborn son but then proceeds to make David his firstborn over his real firstborn. Violating his own law that the order of a firstborn cannot be changed. Psalm 89:27
This would mean there are two firstborns at the time of David. This contradicts the LAW that says a firstborn cannot be rearranged or changed. The firstborn is the firstborn…period. Only by death can the inheritance rights change or be passed on. Deut 21:15-19 (He has no answer for this hypocrisy.)
RM claims Firstborn in Col 1:15 means first created, even though there is no such use of the word firstborn in the New or old Testament ever. EVER! He cannot find a single use of firstborn that that supports his view. All the uses of firstborn are after Jesus resurrection or being birthed as a child. He has no scriptural witnesses. It is always associated with birthing. And begotten is birthing. Today I have begotten you. Means Today I GIVE BIRTH TO YOU. When he brings his firstborn into the world. Hebrews 1:5-6 couldn’t be any clearer. You can’t have a firstborn in the world if you have to bring one into the world. Simple logic…again…RM just ignores this. Like it doesn’t exist.
RM does not acknowledge the present tense or timing of the word firstborn in Col 1:15. Colossians can be turned into a simple math or logic equation.
1. We see that Jesus is the Carbon Copy of God in the Greek text. This means he is not an original but a copy of the original. This implies Jesus is created at the time of Paul’s statement. This is critical.
2. Paul’s statement is taking place AFTER the resurrection and is in the present tense.
3. Meaning at the time of Pauls statement Jesus is two things….Right NOW as we speak 1.) He is a carbon copy of God and he is in the present also the Firstborn of all creation at that very moment.
4. Remember…it bears repeating…When is this moment taking place? After the resurrection.
5. Jesus gave up EVERYTHING in Philippians 2 to become human. He was nothing and had nothing. Not titles, no status, no rewards, he even had the possibility of failing at his mission. He could not be a firstborn. Just as Hebrews 1:5-6 says the firstborn had to begotten or born and brought into the world.
6. David died. In death you lose all property, all status, all titles, all rewards. The dead know nothing. David lost his firstborn status. Jesus also died. There is no way he could have any titles, rank, anything or be anything because he was dead. It would all have to be given to him. He couldn’t even be a son anymore. Notice in the present tense Jesus is begotten and made a son, TODAY…TODAY..TODAY…I have begotten you at that very moment at his resurrection. Why? Because in death he lost even his status as human son? That is what death is. Loss. Gone. Cease to exist. Unless stage 2 takes place. Which is resurrection. Which is being born again. No one can enter the kingdom unless he is born again…period. John 3:5
There are no scriptures supporting his firstborn view. Not one.
All relevant uses of firstborn and including the timeframe of Paul’s statement is in reference to the son after his resurrection. This includes his scripture where Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God in Rev 3:14. This statement is also after the resurrection. And is consistent and supports that it was in fact Jesus that physically created everything in john 1:3. So logically if that is true then Rev 3:14 is the very first time God the father actually physically creates something. Jesus is God’s very first creation starting at the resurrection and going forward.
RM’s philosophy leaves unfulfilled prophecies. According to his version Jesus did not receive ALL the blessings of David. One of the blessings was to become the firstborn. RM says Jesus was in fact already the firstborn. This is nonsense because PSALM 2:7 prophesied “you are my son, today I have birthed you.” And that only came true after resurrection.
Jesus is literally born after his resurrection. That is what begotten means.
When presented that both of these scripture is after the resurrection he is blank and reaches for what he calls the HOTI (Col 1:16) clause which if you strip away his bad logic it works totally against him. He only points out the first part of verse 16 but fails to see there is a second part which calls Jesus an heir.
The HOTI clause can be summed up to this. Why is Jesus the firstborn? Because all things have been created FOR HIM….period. Everything else is immaterial.
It’s the very last words of this verse that he ignores completely but yet they are the very REASON and the Support for the very meaning of FIRSTBORN in verse 15. Jesus is being made HEIR to fulfill prophecy from the very beginning of all things being created for him. Jesus is the Jehovah that I get’s the inheritance. Israel is a people of his inheritance. And only the firstborn has the right to this inheritance. And it is an eternal inheritance. So someone who is going to die cannot get an eternal inheritance. He had to become immortal and get the blessings of David, become the firstborn, to fulfill the prophecy. Fulfilling the prophecy of Psalms 2:7.
So this is why he could not answer my LOGIC question about “is PAUL speaking nonsense”. I posted it several times and he ignored it again like it didn’t exist. See it this post again. Scroll down to the spaghetti example.viewtopic.php?f=50&t=854&start=100#p8055
It destroys RM’s argument and he just covers his eyes, ignores it completely. It just straight denial.
The translators of the New World Translation corrupt Col 1:15-18 by inserting the word other into the text 4 times. No honest bible does this. Because the original Greek only uses the word ALL. And does not have the word THINGS as part of the text. So depending on the context, the translator has the choice between adding the word THINGS or the word OTHER as seen in other scriptures. However, there is no justification to insert both words at the same time. It is a complete fraud. And RM cannot find a single scripture or translator that endorses such a misleading irresponsible translation. It is a direct contradiction with the Jehovah of the OT so they had to alter the text to fit their theology, and since RM is not allowed to disagree with the WT he has to create fantasies to make their interpretation work:
Compare the true translation:
… All [things] have been created by him (Jesus) and for him.
Isaiah 43:21 (NIV)
21 the people I formed for myself
that they may proclaim my praise.
Notice Jehovah formed the people for who? For himself. Notice Jesus created all things, which includes the people for who? Oh how about that…for himself. RM has a contradiction. Because he claims this Jehovah is not Jesus.
According to RM’s theology the Father is a wishy washy God who competes with Jesus.
But as we can easily discern this is not true. There is only one author and one actual physical creator and the above are both about Jesus as creator and God of OT.
Do we not all have one
Father? Did not one
(EL) God (singular) create us?.
There you have it. Smoking Gun evidence that Only one God fathered or authored us. And only one God physically created us. (There could not be raw materials shot into Jesus, then come out as finished product, that then again had to be finished by God. That’s two creators. So then he tries to spilt hairs to say Jesus is just the maker and God is the creator. But his also makes no sense.)
One could argue that Malachi was talking about the same person, but that is absurd because we are told there is a physical creator Jehovah who created everything alone:
I am YHWH that maketh all things
; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself
Job 9:8He alone
stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.
So there is only ONE Actual Physical Creator…period.
It has to be the Father or Jesus. It cannot be both.
Because scripture isolates the actual creator and tells us who actually created everything, whoever this God is, this God did it physically, with his own hands by himself. [/color]
By process of elimination…
He also says (to the son), "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands
the skies proclaim the work of his hands
Isaiah 48:13Mine hand
also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand
, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?
It was Jesus hands that did the creation as the father testifies this himself. So it could not be the father’s hands. This destroys his one is the creator and one is the maker and his raw materials shot into Jesus nonsense.
Has not my hand
made all these things, and so they came into existance?" <==Parallel to John 1:3
All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
We know that there is not a single thing that got brought into existence, that wasn’t done so by Jesus. It was Jesus hands, and he did it alone. All by himself with no help as Isaiah and Job says.
The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands
formed the dry land. Again this Came into existence and it did so by hands. Therefore, it’s Jesus.
Anything that came into existence did so via Jesus. The father himself testifies the heavens are the work of Jesus hands.
9“Who among all these does not know That the hand
of YHWH has done this,
10 In his hand
is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him
, and the world knew him not.
This clearly beyond a shadow of a doubt makes Jesus the sole physical creator Jehovah of the old testament. As Malachi said only One God authored us and only one God created us and as confirmed by Isaiah 44:25 and Job 9:8.
This means firstborn does not mean the same as first created. It means Jesus was uncreated in the beginning.
All the evidence is against RM’s philosophy and stitching of the scriptures. Worst is still the blatant fiction and fantasy that the father created raw materials to shoot into Jesus. This takes the cake.
This is eliminated easily as we see Col 1:16 and look at the true meaning in the Greek interlinear shows God created ALL Things INSIDE Jesus. (Not all other things). This verse is simply another way of saying God is working inside and Jesus is copying what he sees the father doing. This is consistence with Jesus saying he only does what he sees the father doing and why he is working because his father is always working. The father is in me and I in the father. Again RM doesn’t like this. He hates this. He needs Jesus to be an Angel, not united with God but a mere soldier taking orders.
RM needs to go back to square one and stop believing in nonsense published by men.
He had 3 scriptures that are taken out of context to back Jesus is created. All of which are easily overturned.
1. Proverbs…Wisdom is simply personified in proverbs.
2. Col 1:15 is destroyed by his own HOTI clause, the logic, the context of creation, death, the law, Greek interlinear, and prophecy fulfillment, etc… All expose his erroneous view.
3. And the context of the OT scriptures above as Jesus being the only physical creator and the God of Israel smashes his final straw that revelation 3:14 proves Jesus is created and Jesus is first created.
The context shows Jesus joined creation when he became human, he became part of his own creation to be resurrected, and after this was the very first time God ever created anything because as we see above we have logically deduced that only one God created all things by himself with no help. Like a simple math problem, it can only be Jesus.
In closing... RM claiming that the YHWH in all these OT text’s is not Jesus is the most ridiculous self-contradicting theology anyone has ever heard. He has to make excuses, literally invent things such as raw materials being shot into Jesus and then Jesus made the finished product…
…which by the way is not really the finished product because God the father then has to stretch everything out with his own hands but then tells us that it was Jesus hands…and even though not one thing that exists, is able to exist without Jesus, RM has things that came into existence that didn’t come from Jesus…yada yada it’s all a mess. And it's not biblical. It’s fiction. He has no scriptural backing. He just has to assume it’s true otherwise his whole identity is at stake. He would rather go on believing nonsense that accept that the scripture is plain and simple. And fine without his raw materials.
It's an example of how teachings found in corporate religions that are untrue thrive because the individual’s identity is tied to the group and not to the real truth (at all costs). Manipulative groups use unethical compliance techniques, deception, logical fallacies, fear, shunning, and totalitarian control over members while the leaders build a real estate empire and invest in the stock market behind the scenes.
Most important, these religions take away Christ as the mediator and true savior of all men and replace him with the human leader or leadership of the organization as their only hope of salvation. So leadership puts itself in the place of Jesus and reduce Jesus to mere angel or just a prophet or guru. It’s tragic. But that’s what happens when the number one doctrine is obedience at all costs for the sake of unity verses using your own gift for critical thinking. This is called “the ends justify the means.” Their motto is if we have to lie, cheat, hurt, shun, for the sake of unity…so be it. Unity over truth. The bible teaches truth over unity (and if there’s unity, then it’s because of truth which is Christ.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Summary (Part 2 - In regards to the title of this debate.)
I have maintained that Jesus is the Jehovah/YHWH of the Old Testament. He is the David’s Lord and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the God that brought Israel of Egypt. This can all be seen by connecting Jesus to Jehovah through creation and logically deducing that the God of Israel could not, and cannot possibly be the father. (Jesus is a separate Jehovah/YHWH and he is not the father.)
Jesus is not an Angel, nor is he part of a trinity. Both are absurd and conflict with the scriptures.
ANGEL SAFELY ELIMINATED: (RM has no answer for this.)
The world was not created for angels. Hebrews 2:5
And no angel has ever been called a son, ever. Hebrews 1:5
TRINITY SAFELY ELIMINATED:
(I will not show how, because I do not want to give cults that denounce Jesus a quick edge to confuse Christians who do not know their bible. Just know that it’s absurd and in your heart you know there is no such thing as 3 people in one person. Nor is God a committee. I don’t want to give the scriptures as JWs could use this to recruit unsuspecting Christians into the cult. But he trinity can be safely eliminated in 3 scriptures beyond a shadow of a doubt. But the trinity is much closer to the truth than Jesus being a subordinate angel is. In the Trinity Jesus still has his Godhood and is God just as God is God. The concept of equality is preserved. In cults they denigrate Jesus and take him away as the mediator so that the cult leadership steps in to take Jesus place as man's mediator and savior.)
Monotheism is a lie. There are many Gods. There was a time when the nations were divided by the Most HIGH and each was given their own God. However, these Gods all failed and were Judged in Psalm 82.
Every scripture that claims there is only one God is claiming there is only one ELOHIM. That is a plural word. Elohim is a God unity made up of two YHWHs whom later become the Father and the Son. The word ONE in the bible is elusive. We see two but the term is ONE. ONE flesh, Father and I are ONE. There is ONE YHWH. ONE can represent unity. In that unity, One is the Author of ALL things and the other is the Doer of ALL things making ONE creation.
The true relationship between Jesus and the Father is of this order.
1. Two separate YHWHs existed from eternity. (There are two YHWHs in the OT.)
2. This is hidden as the divine name is covered up by inserting the word “THE LORD” everywhere the word YHWH appears in the OT. But is easily seen in any Hebrew interlinear.
3. YHWH1 is the Author of ALL things (Father).
4. YHWH2 is the Creator of ALL things (Jesus).
5. Together they are a unity, with YHWH1 dwelling and working inside YHWH2.
6. YHWH2 is the seen. YHWH1 is the unseen. They are together Elohim. (A plural God unity)
7. These scriptures are all two or more but mean UNITY. The Lord (Yahweh) our God (Elohim) (plural) is One. The father and I are one. Yahweh is one. That you may be one. (Adam and Eve) are one flesh. There are Two but one. It means unity. This is a hard to grasp concept.
8. Here ONE means a single digit. But for us there is only one God the father.... and only one Lord (Master) Jesus Christ. (1 Corinth 8:6) See the difference... Whenever something is "ONE" it's a unity. Whenever there is "but one" or "only one" or the word "one" in front of the subject of the sentence it means a numerical singular.
8. Both are eternal and are uncreated. And love and respect each other from eternity.
9. Since YHWH2 is not created, nor was he born, he is not the firstborn of YHWH1.
10. The two YHWHs want to start a family and they themselves become a family.
11. A covenant is made between the two YHWHs and a plan to become family and start a family.
12. YHWH1 authors all creation. It’s his idea so therefore it’s all his property and part of his plan making him the father of creation.
13. The YHWH2 is to become the son and be the heir of YHWH1’s property. It’s is an inheritance.
14. Because YHWH1 is the author and owner of all creation, YHWH2 has no property rights even though he is the physical creator. Only the author owns all creation.
15. It is not that YHWH1 is the leader or the most powerful God. Both YHWH’s are equal. They are actually twins. (in our image) (whoever has seen me has seen the father)
16. It is property rights and the plan that makes YHWH1 in charge. YHWH2 has agreed to be the LORD or the MASTER AND CHIEF over the mission. It’s the role he gladly takes on.
17. One problem, Adam and Eve doomed the plan and all of mankind. The plan B of salvation and restoring mankind went into action.
18. The nations are divided, languages are confounded, and each nation received their own god to worship.
19. YHWH2 is given ALL AUTHORITY over his portion of the allotted property. He starts with Abraham and a promise then he becomes God of Israel.
20. This makes him the MASTER or Lord, with power of attorney over YHWH1’s property which makes him their ONLY GOD. He is their only God, they have no other besides this united Elohim.
21. Israel did not have access to YHWH1 only YHWH2. Which is why YHWH2 was David’s Lord.
22. This same relationship is played out when YHWH2 becomes the human Jesus.
23. Jesus is endowed with YHWH1 just like he was when he was YHWH2 the God of Israel.
24. Israel has never seen YHWH1. However they have seen YHWH2 many times in Old Testament.
25. Jesus is an heir. All creation is not his property. It is his inheritance. But he is given all authority over it. He has no real property rights. But he is still the exact same nature as YHWH1. Same power. Same wisdom. In the old testament they are equal in every physical way other than ownership of property and the roles they play in the divine plan. Everything was done voluntarily.
26. This is why Jesus calls the father the true God, as legally everything belongs to YHWH1 and Jesus is only the caretaker of the estate and was appointed MASTER or LORD over YHWH1’s property and not the true owner of creation just yet. He stands to legally inherit it.
27. However, Jesus was in the Old testament just as much an all-powerful God as YHWH1 is and was. He was not a soldier following orders or a slave or a created being. He was the united Elohim.
28. Jesus gave up his Godhood as the powerful YHWH the God of Israel to become part of creation and learn obedience as he was sovereign.
29. This is when he started the beginning part of the plan to fulfill the prophecy to become God’s firstborn, the blessing given to David. This is the first time he becomes the begotten son.
30. David was not eternal but the blessings were eternal. David died. There needed to be an eternal heir as well as restoring of mankind.
31. YHWH2 became part of David’s line to fulfill the prophecy, save Israel and inherit the kingdom and ALL of the blessings given to David.
32. All rights, are subject to property. No property no rights. Jesus becomes a piece of property himself as a human. His life is sustained by the father. This makes him just as much a slave as you and I, except he is now made up of YHWH1’s DNA. He is totally dependent on YHWH1.
33. Because of his new DNA make up, this makes him not an ordinary human, but a relative of the FATHER by actual genetics and now the father has a legal heir as David was a temporary heir and at death lost everything.
34. Jesus was the God of Israel, but the Pharisees could not see that. The God that was seen. (no man has ever seen the father.)
35. Jesus was crucified and dead. He had to brought back into the world. And he was BORN AGAIN by being resurrected. He was raised in the flesh full of blood.
36. He went into heaven into the holy of holy’s and emptied is blood onto the alter cleansing it.
37. He was cloaked in spirit and changed into a life giving spirit. He was restored as a SON a new creation. At his resurrection is the ONLY Time Jesus becomes the FIRSTBORN.
38. And he is given the name above ALL NAMES. That name is YHWH. He is given his old name back. (Watchtower erroneously inserts OTHER into the text, given the name above all other names. As if the commoner’s name Jesus is now the name above all other names. All I can say is wow!)
39. So the name you call on is YHWH, that is who Jesus is today. When Jesus prayed he didn’t have to call on himself. So he prayed “our Father.”
40. But you are told to no one gets to the father but through me (Jesus). You are told to call on the name OF Jesus, not the name Jesus. OF is implying a possession he had. What was the name Jesus came in? What was the name he was given? What name did he inherit? The name above all names…He was given back his old name YHWH…What’s the name above all names but technically not above the father’s? Naturally the same name. It’s above all cause it’s the same name. The both have the name above all names.
41. This is why all of the scripture quotes Joel, that there is only one name under the heavens that saves, calling on the name YHWH. Jesus was the God in Joel. Jesus was always and is YHWH the God who saves.
42. Lord means master. We have One God the Father, and one Master Yhwh Yahushua.
So what now? Put it to the test. You will see it’s the truth. The more you challenge it the more you will confirm and clarify it. Do your own research. God won’t strike you down for questioning the doctrines of men. Here is a good place to start. https://sites.google.com/site/yahwehelohiym/home
I am not affiliated with this website. But it is an eye opener.
Also see Dr. Heiser The Jewish trinity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz8J4DTIkEg
(There is no such thing as a Jewish trinty, his video does open the eyes that there are two YHWHs. You have God as one entity. You have Jesus as a separate entity. Then you have the holy spirit, which is simply Jesus with God acting in a unity and the bible refers to them as a singular HE. Notice that the Lamb and God are both referred to as a HE in REVELATION
Revelation 22:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb
(plural) shall be in it; and his
(singular) servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his
(singular)face; and his
(singular) name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they
shall reign for ever and ever.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ
(plural), and will reign with Him
(singular)for a thousand years.
God and Christ united are considered singular...a HIM....that is the holy spirit. Once Jesus becomes an omnipresent spirit he can be everywhere and he has God dwelling in him. Together they are the Holy Spirit. (not to be confused with God's power. God used his power which is also called his holy spirit. I'm simply referring to the pronouns him or he that personifies the holy spirit. Any time you see the holy spirit personified it is the unity of God and Christ in Omnipresent form.
Lesson: Every Christian religion has a piece of the truth, and they are all also teaching lies as well and mostly traditional nonsense. Examine each component and you will see what stands up to scrutiny and what doesn’t. it is written "Let the prophets speak.." It's okay to hear what churches teach. But it's not okay to follow blindly.
It means you are now a spiritual adult and you can help and guide others. You don’t become self-righteous because you know this knowledge and others don’t. It makes you privileged. So what do you do? Hold on to what’s good and dump the bad and continue to grow in grace and knowledge and call on YHWH Yahushua the son to open the door, and pray "our Father". And your life will change.PROCEED TO ROTHERHAM'S SUMMARY